Anyway, what has this to do with Engage? Well since there's not much that can be said in favour of the racist war criminals of the State of Israel, the false allegation of antisemitism, the exaggeration of its incidence and the bogus analysis as to what are its causes have become the stock in trade of the zionist hasbara movement. This puts them in a bit of a cleft stick when the real thing rears its head. This has been happening, mostly on line, for a few years now using the real repugnance of zionism to denounce all Jews. I suspect that the hand of Israel is in this somewhere because the main targets of the antisemitic abuse are Jewish anti-zionists.
Now Tony Greenstein has been a very long standing campaigner against zionism and he is actually the kind of campaigner that Dr Hirsh has blamed for Atzmon and co's antisemitism in the past but as the Atzmon/Wizo campaign intensified, another zionist group, the Alliance for Workers' Liberty, decided to mischief make by running a post titled "Defend Tony Greenstein" and since it is an obvious embarrassment to Tony, who is being described as a crypto-zionist by the Atzmon/Wizo axis, Engage climbed aboard and ran the post as well.
They ran it here. But click o the link and you get this:
Genuine apologies to all - I was moderating comments and I deleted this whole post by mistake - DHNow this is very strange because in the time he spent to write his "genuine" apology, he could have googled "defend Tony Greenstein", scrolled down a bit and rescued the post from the google cache. He could then have seen what he wrote in the first place:
Defend Tony Greenstein from the antisemites!Tony Greenstein has been banned from the Indymedia network for insisting accurately that Gilad Atzmon is an antisemite.And then he could have copied and pasted what he found back into the post. Maybe he was tired after clicking the "delete this post button" and then clicking the "ok" button when the dialog box asked "do you really want to delete this post?" Or maybe he just highlighted the whole post and deleted that. Either way, why didn't he go to the cache like I just did?
More from Workers' Liberty.
As is the way with Engage, curious always gets curiouser because the comments have disappeared too. Again, google cache to the rescue, but be quick because the cache disappears after a few days.
All very untidy I know and I will tidy it up when I get the chance [27/2/08 - I've tidied it up now for what it's worth] but I wanted to publish this asap so that people can see what it was that Dr Hirsh claims he accidentally deleted, both the post and the comments, by following the links to the caches before they too disappear.
Comments about Defend Tony Greenstein from the antisemites! :
"No matter how vile Greenstein is, it is a pathetic sight to see him being attacked as a Jew by the antisemitic bullies. Antiracists should stand with him when that happens"
What does 'standing with him' mean? I'm not about to start going through his old post looking in vain for a silver lining to show everybody that he is deserving of a voice. That is not going to happen. I don't have to - Greenstein deserves a voice on any site that gives a holocaust denier, muck-spreader, and self-confessed despiser of Jewishness like Atzmon (http://tinyurl.com/yb8v5w) a voice, full stop. But that's not a defence of Greenstein.
'Defending' Greenstein amounts to defending a purveyor of one kind of antisemitism (the kind of anti-Zionism that blames Zionists as the worst form of antisemites) who complains about the *wrong* kind of different antisemitism as peddled by the people he calls 'Hitlerites' in the Palestine Solidarity Campaign.
Since Tony Greenstein is a menace to anybody fighting antisemitism, I'd say it's important to *avoid* defending him in any way other than incidentally, based on principles most people hold about standing up to antisemitism. Maybe the effect for Greenstein and for Indymedia is the same. But it shouldn't require, as AWL did, the call to 'Defend Tony Greenstein!' which risks all kinds of unconditional warm feelings towards him from people who don't understand his project and don't realise that he believes that an enormous proportion of Jews - those who he identifies as Zionists - are the biggest antisemites and cause of antisemitism of all.
I'd much rather consider the way Indymedia betrays the notion of Independent Media, its pathetic device of slapping the word 'hidden' all over an article, failing to explain this adequately, and showing it anyway (http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/01/389837.html), its enthusiastic hosting of an outright antisemite who think that the behaviour of American Jews render debate about whether the Protocols are true irrelevant. Indymedia is a hateful site.
If you can figure out what's being said here you can see the problem Engage has with Tony Greenstein. He is a principled anti-zionist, that is he is someone that Engage would normally accuse of antisemitism but he is clearly on the receiving end of an antisemitic campaign. Now since principle has never been Engage's business they didn't really have to do anything but I suspect they couldn't resist the opportunity to embarrass Tony. But this merely highlights the fact that Tony isn't antisemitic. So what do they do? They defend Tony Greenstein, allow 13 comments, some saying "why should we?" some saying why "we" should.
I mentioned a few times in the past how Linda Grant has a tendency to post off-topic stuff. Well you'll have seen that already if you read this far down. But let's have it again:
I saw Gilad Atzmon in the lobby at the BBC last week. We were both waiting to go into studios. He was talking at some length to someone on his mobile phone about the best method of suing someone, based on the case he is himself, he said, preparing again[st?] 'Greenstein.' He was dressed all in black and I was left with the impression that he dyes his hair. Personally, I find that iffy in a guy, but very common in the music business, I suppose.This suggests to me that Atzmon was talking English on his mobile. He calls himself a Hebrew speaking Palestinian. The petition calls him a non-Palestinian. Now the thing that gets me is that Atzmon is also English speaking and yet he insists on calling himself Hebrew speaking. His beef with anti-zionists who identify themselves as Jewish is that he says to identify yourself as Jewish in a camaign is the same as zionism. Stupid really since it doesn't exclude anyone from campaigning and it certainly doesn't involve any ethnic cleansing. But Atzmon is being a hypocrite here. He calls himself Hebrew speaking because he wants people to know that he has a Jewish connection or else he would call himself English speaking. The petition calling on Palestinians (you know, those people who are being killed, as I write, by Atzmon's compatriots) to show their solidarity with him, calls him non-Palestinian and yet he is promoting it in spite of calling himself a Palestinian. Perhaps he thought that Palestinians wouldn't accept him calling himself Palestinian when he is actually Israeli.
Sorry, I shouldn't have gone off on a tangent on a garbled post anyway but this shows the sheer buffoonery of Hirsh and Atzmon so I could neither resist the post nor the digression.
So, like I said, I wanted to rush this out before the cache goes cold but I will tidy it up later.
Meanwhile, I should say that if someone comes up with a legalistic reason for Hirsh disappearing (or at least trying to) his own post and the comments, maybe this here post will disappear. If so, try google cache, while it lasts.
I just stumbled on these comments to the above post.